#101 2009-05-04 09:46:43

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

My call with Adobe went about as expected.  Basically, they are working on the issue but still haven't identified the cause of the problem, so don't know how to fix it.  I am going to continue testing on my end, but other groups at my company are now searching for alternatives as well.  Also lookes like I get to continue archiving all of our recordings for if/when we stop using Connect.

-Chris

**_bbjawer_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Folks, be aware that the fixes applied on 4/10 to address some of the VoIP issues appear to be causing other problems.  One problem appears to be that when someone is speaking on VoIP, not everyone can hear them (some folks can hear the voice and others cannot).  In addition, you sometimes loose the speaker's audio on the recording - even when they can be heard during the live event.  This gets more frustrating by the day.  It is really ashame that Adobe doesn't seem to have any kind of handle on these problems.....and often appears to cause more breakage in the system when they attempt to fix some of the problems.

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

bbjawer - So, I don't think there is anything you have written that I disagree with, and I have stated the same thing many times.  What I can tell you is I don't think I have had the audio droping on the recordings even with the 4/10 updates (which Eric recently posted about to clearify what the update was supposed to address).   

Other than that, nothing new from me.  Still having problems, still testing and changing settings with Adobe.  I was supposed to have a call with Adobe today, but we moved it to next week so that I can test the na4 cluster more.  Either way, I have been told that the audio issues are happening on most all of their clusters (Europe has not reported any problems that I can find), na3 just happens to be the most affected.  So, trying to change clusters doesn't sound as good as it used to.  We will keep testing, but a time needs to come when I am using a working solution rather than testing a broken one in an effort to help Adobe determin what is wrong with it.

-Chris

**_bbjawer_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Thanks Chris, I agree with what you say.  And, thanks again for opening up this thread - at the very least we all bettter understand that this is not just one or two customers having these VoIP  problems.  It is more pervasive than that.

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

So update of the week...

Connect on some fronts is better, some is still the same.  Testing out a different cluster to determine if we want to switch clusters and hopefully get a better expereince.  Other options would be to move to external service provider (good thing I talk to most of you already), host locally, or move to something else all together.  Every option has its atvantages and disadvantages.  I just wish they could figure out why we are having so many problems on na3 and get it fixed.  That does not look like it will ever happen, so looking at these other options.  My favorite is the last one, but who knows what tomorrow will bring.

Anyone else still having problems with VoIP after SP2, or am I pretty much the only one now?  Well, me and my whole company.  Adobe has made a number of changes, but our experience is mixed as to if they have helped or not.

thanks
-Chris

**_et_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Hi Chris & everyone,

I know support has been working with those who have engaged with them on this topic, and that there are a handful of open cases under investigation.  You aren't the only one, but it also isn't quite the 'pervasive' that @bbjawer suggested above.  Having said that, we're keeping an intense focus on this and continuing to work each case to better understand it and work through it.

The approach support has been taking is primarily in two areas:  one area is related to tunables, and the other is related to location.  In the former case, different buffering settings will be tested; in the latter, if the Internet route in use is a factor, an account on an alternate clusters may be tested.  If you're participating in this testing, I appreciate your assistance and patience as we work through the options to see what configuration works best for your account and location.  For most folks the default configuration works fine, but when it doesn't we need to work together and look more deeply.

From an operational point of view, there was one relatively minor change on 5/8 related to a load balancer in the NA3 zone.  The change was related to our connectivity to a partner and unrelated to VoIP, but if anyone has noticed an improvement since last week, please let us know.  When you say "on some fronts [it] is better" perhaps this is what you meant -- if so, that would be great to hear.

Looking forward, in the near future there will be a couple of changes, including a service pack and a core infrastructure upgrade for the NA3 and NA4 clusters.  Like all regular updates, these changes will be done in a scheduled maintenance window and should be transparent to accounts on these clusters.  These are targeted to further increase overall system reliability, availability and performance.  While these are general operational improvements that aren't specific to the issues mentioned in this thread, they should only help.

Chris, I had one other idea -- have you by chance tried VoIP in ConnectNow?  It's a different system and not necessarily suited to your use case, but from a VoIP perspective it would be useful to know if it behaves the same or not.

thanks
Eric

**_bbjawer_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Chris, we have had VoIP since we started using V7 on NA3 last year - and we continue to have problems.  We have had some better luck on the NA2 cluster, and we are also trying to run on a dedicated server through ConnectSolutions (who are great to work with).  The VoIP fixes applied on 4/10 have caused new VoIp problems that, I understand, are somewhat occasional.  First, there are times the speaker on VoIP won't be heard by everyone.  When this occurs, the recording will likely not have the speaker's audio captured at all.  Second, one of the problems that the 4/10 fixes were supposed to solve was when there are multiple speakers and they speak serially during the live VoIP session - they come out with overlapped voices on the recording.  It is very frustrating dealing with these continuing VoIP problems because Adobe has an overall good product with Connect Pro, but they don't seem to have a handle on the VoIP issues - and it isn't clear they are getting any closer to a solution.  Be assurred that you are NOT the only one continuing to experience VoIP problems with Connect.  However, like you we have just about reached the end of our tether with Connect.  We depend on good quality VoIP, and we have never gotten it from Connect as long as we have been running with it.  We are losing hope that the product will ever be fixed in this area.  Thanks for keeping this thread alive.

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Eric,
    Thanks for the update.  Regarding the updates on 5/8, my understanding is that they were to fix some telephony issues, but had a possible possitive side effect on VoIP.  Even though the updates weren't for VoIP, I was asked by support to provide feedback on any changes in our experiences. 
    This is where the different fronts come in that I referenced.  We have different groups here that use Connect for different customer facing activities.  For my group, we have seen a better expereince than in the past few months.  For another group, their experiences were about the same as they have been.  These are in regards to VoIP, and this feedback has been given to support in reference to my case. 

     Regarding you forward looking statements, when are these changes expected to take place?  I will also ask some of my Adobe contacts to see if they can fill me in, but this may help us with determining timelines in which we have to make decisions about the use of Connect.

     Regarding Connect Now, I have heard some good things about its VoIP, but ultimately other than telling you it is better than what I have on NA3, it won't do me good to test due to our use case.  If you can update Connect Meeting with the VoIP that is using in Connect Now, that may be something worth looking into.  Which brings up the question of why aren't they the same already?

-Chris

**_et_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Chris, the changes I mentioned earlier should roll out by early summer -- pretty soon now.  With respect to ConnectNow, the VoIP experience should be identical.  If you find that ConnectNow is providing you a better VoIP experience then I'd like to look at that more closely.  Please let me know.

thanks
Eric

**_Shelley_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Meant to post this sooner... on May 14th we did a live 90-minute broadcast with about 60 participants, one presenter and one moderator on USB headsets. We had the worst VOIP issues ever. I counted 47 (yes, FORTY-SEVEN) audio lapses, some lasting longer than 10 seconds. A complete embarrassment.

Adobe tech support said there were server issues on the NA3 cluster when we were broadcasting, and that they have fixed the instability since then.  Still getting audio lapses, but thank goodness they aren't as frequent and lengthy as on that day!

**_johnnydaj_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

I don't want to spread negativity but I do want to share for the sake of improving Adobe Connect.  I wish there were more posts here explaining the challenges with Version 7 SP2.  Here is a brief summary of my experience with our licensed Adobe Connect (not hosted by Adobe servers):

  We run webcasts pretty much every day.  We have several servers, and have run production on servers with version 6.3 and with 7.2.  We  have had good success with the older version (currently running 6.3) and in fact have moved ALL of our live programs back to this server due to the problems related to VOIP and video associated with the camera pod, especially when we have more than one camera (video & VOIP) feed when using version 7.

While our programs are running well on 6.3, we experienced a great deal of pain with clients who we have hosted meetings for on our 7.2 server before moving everyone back to the server running 6.3. 

Certainly we can continue to run on 6.3 for now but there are several other items involved here since we have integrated the Adobe Connect Training with 7.2 and we would significantly benefit from the voice of god feature which is only available with version 7.  Last but not least, the ability to edit the recordings is a huge benefit of version 7 but since we cannot rely on this version for stability and quality of the programs, we are now in a bind with regard to the potential benefits of the new features involved with the newer version.

Lastly, when can we expect the new release? (8.0 is it?) And more importantly, what can we look forward to in the new release?  If the Adobe Development team could combine the stability and reliability of 6.3 with the added features of 7.2, we would be very happy with the product.  Until then, we continue to be frustrated by the challenges.

Thanks in advance for any helpful responses or comments.

Last edited by **_johnnydaj_** (2009-05-27 14:45:02)

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Shelly - What you experienced is exactly what we have been experiencing since SP2 came out in Feb when using NA3.  I have recently done some testing on NA4 and had better results, but what you have described are what I would consider typical behavior for NA3.  Don't believe them if they say they have fixed things because my contacts say they don't have a clue what is causing the VoIP issue, which is why it is taking so long to fix.

Johnny - Thank you for the additional insight to a licensed install because this is the first time I have really heard this from someone not on a hosted account that I remember.  In case you are not aware, when Adobe released Connect 7, it was their first full release of the product after getting it from Macromedia.  They had made some updates, but this was the full release.  I think you also hit the nail on the head that with the update to 7 Adobe did make some great improvements, including the editing of a recording (though extremely limited, something is better than nothing), and improving the back end.  The issue is they also broke things when they changed the way VoIP works, and it wasn't evident until the changes with SP2.  The funny thing is they have told me that they have gone back to see how any changes with SP2 could have adversly affected VoIP and couldn't identify anything.  With future upgrades they are hoping to correct some of the issues seen both before and after SP2, but it is unknow how exactly VoIP will be improved.  SP3 will be coming out this month.  Then I understand (and have stated on the boards a few times) that Connect 7.5 will be coming out later this year, probably late Q3 or early Q4.  We won't get much info until a week or so before the release at most.  Sometimes we will get some possible improvements, but that can change up until they actually release the update.

All of this said, my expereinces haven't improved on NA3, but I have seen better performance on NA4.  I have a feeling that is in part due to the load differences, but there is no evidence to support this.  We are currently evaluating other vendors in our effort to determine if Adobe will continue to be our best solution provider.  In the mean time, there will be updates made soon that I hope will correct our main issue (VoIP problems), and hopefully make other improvements as well.  If they work, Adobe will start to move back into a good light, but at this point I am not keeping my fingers crossed.

My 2 cents for today,
-Chris

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Nothing new, things still aren't working.  I can't wait to see how SP3 affects things after this weekends updates.  There are some other changes being done as well.  I am hopeful that we will see an improvement, doubt it will happen, and scared about what else will break after the updates.

-Chris

**_bbjawer_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

We got an early version of SP3.  Found at least one thing it broke (reports).  Adobe is fixing that, I'm told and was, in part, a reason for the delay in applying SP3 to the hosted systems last weekend.  We didn't see any improvement in VoIP performance, but we keep hoping that we could still be (pleasantly) surprised when the hosted systems are upgraded to SP3.  However, we also sense Adobe still doesn't have their arms around what is causing the problem and therefore no real solution is forthcoming.

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

You are correct, Adobe still has no idea what is causing the VoIP problem.  It is just time for SP3 to come out.  They are making other hardware changes this weekend, so that is where I am hoping an improvement happens.  I am not crossing my fingers for anything possitive to happen this weekend, hoping I will have a pleasant surprise next week.

-Chris

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

So, things didn't come crashing down after the updates, so that is good.  Now for lots of testing to see if things are better after SP3 and additional hardware upgrades.

-Chris

**_bwc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

I'm sorry I'm late to this game, I had totally forgotten about these forums, despite posting one of the very first posts here (the crickets scared me away).

We've been using Connect Pro Hosted for 2 years, and it's been fabulous

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Brian - Great post, good info.  What you describe is exactly what we have been experiencing ourselves.  This also includes some noted improvements over the past week since SP3.

So, my update for today...
All of the updates (both hardware and software) from this past weekend seem to have helped as we have not see a sizeable audio drop with VoIP this week.  However, we have seen a number of smaller drops, which are more frequent than prior to SP2, but not as bad as the drops during SP2.  Most of these drops are small enough that I would not have noticed them if I wasn't listening for them with the exception of just a few (which still weren't bad).  That being said, I agree with Brian that the quality is not what is once was, and the restrictions on the enhanced audio are a pain.  Being able to adjust the silence level is important for us because we often have loud hardware in the room our presenter is in because they need it for a demo.  In the past, adjusting the silence level to only 5 (rather than 0) made a world of difference, and would be nice to have back.  I have also notice that the presenter's volume can fluctuate even when the presenter isn't changing the level at which they are speaking. 

At the end of the day, the performance has improved, but I am not celebrating yet.  I still have concerns that the actual cause of the issue was not identified, and have concerns it will pop back up.  There are also smaller things that I am not sure if I consider an issue, or something that I have to accept to get the VoIP working again.  I will be staying intouch with Adobe management and Adobe support until we are 100% satisfied that the issue has been resolved to the best of Adobe's abilities.

-Chris

**_Shelley_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Brian, your set-up sounds a LOT like ours. Say hi to Jared for me!

Everyone, Chris included, I am thrilled to report that our broadcast today was FLAWLESS. No audio gaps whatsoever. And we just finished rehearsing next week's seminar, with the same results.

I'm so happy, I think I might start crying!

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

I can honestly say that I am glad to be hearing multiple good reports.  Again, I am not celebrating yet, but this is the happiest I have been with the product in a while.  Thanks for the update Shelley!

-Chris

**_BCCAresearch_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Shelley,

I'm fairly new to ACP and after reading some of your earlier posts I was having nightmares about our setup. I'm just finishing a Province wide deployment in several remote location. We've had some of the same issues as you have but not to the same degree, our biggest problem was eliminating an audio echo.

I echo roysdenc, and your last post has given me a huge amount of relief! Let's hope that adobe can address any remaining issues asap.

Cheers.

**_johnnydaj_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

I noticed a concern about the echo.  Note that with many headsets, the wires are not shielded very well and the mic and earpiece wires can "bleed" if echo cancellation and specific advanced "tweaking" ahead of time is not executed. 

Keep in mind that the plug in for the audio set up should be installed and you should make sure that the enhanced audio box is checked in the advanced settings within the audio settings wizard for EACH and EVERY presenter or host that will be using a mic. 

If there are multiple people speaking without the enhanced audio (with echo cancellation), the settings combined with the headset limitations/capabilities (glass half empty or half full?) can cause echo and possibly some additional quality issues.

With all that said, one of the problems we have had with any of the versions of 7 (Adobe's first true release after purchasing Macromedia Breeze and making it their own) is the synchronization of video and audio with enhanced audio turned on.  thus the conundrum thus far with Adobe Connect 7.1, 7.2...

Hopefully, the latest 7.3 release has rectified the synchronization issues.  Our testing thus far has been moderately positive with 7.3 so let's all keep our fingers crossed.  I have more extensive testing in the next two weeks.  I'll be back for an update soon.

**_Shelley_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Hi, Johnny, thanks for joining the discussion!

I'd like to hear from someone at Adobe whether checking "enhanced audio" is the right move. A few months ago we were specifically told it should NOT be checked -- that it seemed to contribute to the VOIP issues. In fact, they made the default setting for that to be UNchecked.

Regarding headsets, we used to send our presenters $30 Logitech USB models. No more. We've found that GN2000 (or higher) models from HelloDirect are MUCh better!

Hope that helps.

**_johnnydaj_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

Shelly,

Thanks for the quick response.  What I have experienced with version 7 and the camera and voice pod:

1. The video and audio would not be "in sync" with multiple camera and VOIP feeds entering and exiting.  This was our #1 problem and concern.
2. A close second to #1 was that the VOIP / audio would cut out quite a bit (very choppy audio overall)

Adobe Connect Support instructed us to turn off the enhanced audio at that point.  Which basically meant that they could not identlfy and fix the problem but if we subject ourselves to lower quality audio (and echo), we could alleviate the problems above.

Enhanced Audio (specifically echo cancellation as per even the older 6.3 version of the software) is what prevents our room echo which can be controlled a bit with the quality of a headset but NOT eliminated completely.

Our presenters cannot wear big headsets on camera and we do not move them to a studio environment since many of them are key people in their fields who do not have the time to even leave their offices for their presentations.  We offer a very compact, convenient packaged solution which relies on the capability and integrity of the software and its functionality.

We are still using version 6.3 for our live programs since we have not been able to rely on any of the 7 releases yet.  We are still testing 7.3 before rolling it out.  We have been burnt and lost business due to the technical challenges encountered with 7.

To summarize, 6.3 reliability is great, functionality and back end capabilities limited in many areas.  7 has some great additional features but the reliability is not up to snuff.

Last edited by **_johnnydaj_** (2009-08-10 18:40:59)

**_roysdenc_**

Re: VOIP audio drops increase after SP2

johnnydaj - I completely agree that any version before 7.x is prefered from a stability and performance standpoint.  I can't wait to see what improvments (or lack there of) come with 7.5.

Shelly - When speaking with higher ups in Adobe I have made reference to the "don't check enhanced audio" as a solution to our problems, and I can say that none of them were happy that this was the solution from support.  Again, something I hope is addressed in 7.5.  We went for a short period without using enhanced audio, but for us the results in behavior were no better or worse than with enhanced audio.  The audio sucked and was mostly worthless because we often have loud hardware that we use for demos in the room with the presenter, so we have continued using enhanced audio.

Since the latest update I have not spent much time using Connect (thus I have not been spending as much time on the forum) because I have better and more important things to do that use a product I don't trust.  Our initial experince with the latest update was positive, and most of our major issues looked to have been at least temporarily resolved.  All the problems caused we had been having over the months prior to the update really pushed people to other avenues to do what we were doing with Connect.  I expect that we will increase our usage again in a month or two, but it has slowed to a stop for now.  This is fine by me because if we aren't using it, I don't have to talk to Adobe support people who don't know how to support their own product.  They just take notes and ask to call you back.  They never call back, so it doesn't do good any way, but at least now I am not waisting my time.

-Chris